Mike Bayer
You're listening to the Vacation Rental Success Podcast, and we don't have a sponsor for our episode in March for a very important reason. We need your help.

Mike Bayer
In Canada, short-term rentals are under attack from regulations being imposed by legislators, including a full ban in the province of British Columbia. These decisions are being made based on biased reports with inaccurate data generated by lobbyists from competing industries.

Mike Bayer
In an effort to make our voices heard and start the conversation with top-level decision-makers, the CanStays Rental Alliance Conference is happening April 20-22 in Banff, Alberta. This is the first time in the history of short-term rentals across the world has an event like this, and on this scale, been created so property managers, individual owners, and other stakeholders can have their say out from the shadow of Airbnb.

Mike Bayer
This event may be focused on Canada, but if we don't all stand up and support this initiative, your local legislators could follow the lead of these Canadian regulations that will find their way to your tourist area. We need you to attend. We need you to share this message, and we need you to get involved. Visit canstaysrentalalliance.com to book your ticket and join the fight for our right to a fair and responsible future for the short-term rental industry. If you need extra incentive to book, use the coupon code VRF100 to take $100 off your ticket. Also, check the CanStays website for discounts on flights with WestJet.

Mike Bayer
Without further delay, let's get to today's episode. Here's your host, Heather Bayer.

Heather Bayer
In today's episode, we're talking about professional design for vacation rentals, and that's design that incorporates safety, sustainability, and community awareness, as well as what you'd expect conventional interior design to be. I'm joined by Jessica Duce, the owner of J Duce Designs and the founder of the Vacation Rental Design Summit.

Heather Bayer
This is the Vacation Rental Success Podcast, keeping you up-to-date with news, views, information, and resources on this rapidly changing short-term rental business. I'm your host, Heather Bayer, and with 25 years of experience in this industry, I'm making sure you know what's hot, what's not, what's new, and what will help make your business a success.

Heather Bayer
Well, hello and welcome to another episode of the Vacation Rental Success Podcast. This is your host, Heather Bayer, and as ever, I'm super delighted to be back with you once again. You know, I started out in vacation rentals 25 years ago in Ontario's Cottage Country, and design was simple. It was unadorned. There were rustic cottages with lots of pine and cedar, loon and moose-inspired artwork and furnishings, lots of grandma's old patchwork quilts on the beds, which were invariably iron bedsteads with lumpy mattresses and thin pillows, all of which had been slept on for decades.

Heather Bayer
And while I know you're going, Yuck, guests never complained. They came for the outdoors, they came for the lake, the kayaking, the swimming, and getting back to nature. They were happy without TV or internet, and evenings were spent around the campfire, playing cards and board games. All that wonderful stuff that I remember from bringing up my kids, and sadly, isn't the same now.

Heather Bayer
Today, we live in a TikTok and Instagram world and expectations are just off the charts. There's no room for flaws and errors in design, and everything has to be curated meticulously to fill the wants and the needs and the desires of an ever-demanding public. And the explosion in supply over the past few years has spawned a new wave of guru, the Airbnb Designer. Just look it up on Google or YouTube, and you're going to find hundreds of aspiring experts telling you what the top 10 tips are for setting up a new rental, or what the worst design mistakes are, or how to make a million with just a few small hacks. You've seen them. Social media has brought out the crazies. And while I don't dispute, there are people with more than a year's experience willing to help you out, finding the right advice and help is a real minefield today.

Heather Bayer
I've always felt more comfortable with people who've been around the business for quite a while. Those who have honed their skills over time and have real education in what they're trying to teach. So when Tyan Marcink Hammond suggested I talk to Jessica Duce about her design work and the event she was putting on in High Point, North Carolina, I was intrigued. Here was someone who's been an interior designer for many years and has since identified the vacation rental business as a category that needs to be professionalized. It's a category where safety and sustainability and community relations all play a part in the overall design of a successful property and property management business.

Heather Bayer
I was invited to speak at the Vacation Rental Design Summit. However, unfortunately, I had another commitment. And after talking to Jess, I really hope they're going to invite me again for next year's event. But more about that later. So without further ado, let's meet Jessica Duce and hear all about why this industry needs more professional designers to take it to the next level.

Heather Bayer
I'm super happy to have with me today, Jessica Duce from J Duce Design and Vacation Rental Designers. And she is also the founder of the Vacation Rental Design Summit, which is going to be held in High Point, North Carolina in April. So super happy to have you with me, Jess. I've listened to a number of podcasts where you've talked about your journey in this industry, and I can't wait for my audience to hear about that journey. So tell us about your background in interior design and how you found your way into the vacation rental world.

Jessica Duce
Sure. Absolutely. I have to say I'm a big fan, so I'm honored to be here. So thank you very much.

Jessica Duce
My journey started in 2015. I was actually a designer in Colorado, and a client from Nebraska asked me to pick out flooring for a home in Oregon. That's really interesting, isn't it? And they had been referred to me by some other clients. I had one job, to fly in, pick out flooring for a brand new vacation rental that they had just purchased, their first endeavor into the world of vacation rentals. And it was a 10,000 square foot home, so flooring was a big decision.

Jessica Duce
And when I arrived, the property manager was there, the brand new owners and the contractor, and there were flooring samples laid out. And the property manager had told them, The vacation rental comes furnished. It's renting. This is turnkey, you're good to go. And what I saw was a beautiful home that had, yes, it needed some updated flooring, but it also had very tired furnishings. It looked like a garage sale had died there.

Jessica Duce
I looked around and said, with my gut, I think you should spend your money on the furnishings, not the floor. And the contractor was not a fan of me right at that moment, nor was the property manager. We all ended up becoming friends later. Happy story ending. But the owner crossed his arms and I'm thinking, How am I going to get back to the airport? And he said, All right, I'm going to trust you. What would you do? And that became my first project.

Jessica Duce
So my very first project was a large home with a property manager telling these owners, You're wasting your money. And I had to figure it out, but they ended up tripling the rent. And I went on to do seven more homes for that property manager in the next two years after that. And the contractor worked on all of them. I am still working for that property manager today. I had to learn the hard way. I fell in love. I realized quickly that I had a responsibility to not only learn how to furnish responsibly for the budget, but also for the guest experience.

Heather Bayer
That trip to Oregon wasn't your first foray into interior design, though. You've got it in the blood, I understand.

Jessica Duce
Over 20-years I've been doing interior design. My mother was a designer. I think this is literally the only skill set I have at this point, but I love it. I could talk about it all day long, and I think it's exciting, and I like improving environments for people.

Heather Bayer
It's really interesting what you say about owners and their perspectives on what they've just bought, because in 20 years as a property manager, I experienced this so many times going out to view properties and the owner saying, I've just bought it and it's come 'all ready'. It's ready to go. You can just list it tomorrow and we can have bookings next week. And I'd arrive and it was clear that the previous owner had just walked away because they didn't want to take that furniture with them. Nobody would want it. Everything that was in there had probably been that… It's the stuff in the home where you say, I really don't want to throw this out, but what should I do with it? I'll take it to the vacation home and leave it there. And of course, it had been left there for years and years and years. And then the new owner takes it on to be told that it's rented wonderfully for the last 10 years. So you can just walk in and go with it.

Heather Bayer
I do not have a design gene in my body, but I was still able to see this and go, no, no, no, you need to make some changes. So I do understand what happens when you have to face somebody who thinks they've got it all on point and you have to tell them some truths. I bet you've done that quite a few times.

Heather Bayer
Yes, I have. And one of the conversations we have is, would this be to your standard if you are on vacation with your family? Is this what you would expect for a rental you're looking Why does your guess that you want to hopefully have come back time again have to live below your standard? So, yeah, we can do better.

Heather Bayer
So what are the big no-nos? When you walk in and you see something like that, what was it? Was it just the the entirety of it or were there particular pieces that just needed changing? I just like to know, and I'm sure the audience would like to know, what it is that you are picking up on when you walk into a space like that.

Jessica Duce
I mean, yes, I am a designer by trade, but I feel many people would have had this same instinct, because this is actually a very well-known vacation rental on the Oregon Coast. It's called Big Blue, if anybody ever wants to look it up. And it has an incredible view. It's literally, I think it's 13 steps to the sand, private ocean beach in front of them, huge home. It's beautiful. Well, it's on the Oregon Coast, and it's called Big Blue, and you walked in and it had slate floors and dark brown leather sofas and oil paintings that looked like a mixture of Tuscany and a wilderness setting in Colorado. There was some horse pillows. There was some nautical thrown in with the Western. So I mean, as gifted as I may be, I feel like a lot of people maybe have said, You know what? If you're going for attracting people attracted to the Coast, at least the horse pillows, we have to recognize, are a problem. But it was also very tired and it was very dark, and it did not invite a sense of wanting to hang out, in my opinion.

Heather Bayer
I remember walking into a place once, and it wasn't that long ago. And bearing in mind, I'm talking about Ontario, Canada. It's two hours north of Toronto. It's full of rustic stuff. There's lakes, there's forests, there's all the animals, the loons and bears, and moose, and you see those in the artwork everywhere, and occasionally hanging on the walls with noses, ears, and heads, and things. Yes. But then I walked into this one space, and the owner obviously had this liking for the loon because there were loon accents everywhere. And then on the wall was a massive piece of art, which was the Eiffel Tower.

Jessica Duce
That reminds me of a skit I saw recently.

Heather Bayer
We're going to come along and talk about the SNL skit, because it was just so funny and it's so real.

Jessica Duce
I loved it. Loved it.

Heather Bayer
But before we do that, I wanted to just talk about the whole idea of vacation rental design, because in my experience as a property manager, certainly going through the first 10 or 15 years, vacation rental design didn't really come into it, and I bought seven properties over a period of time, without as I said any design genes. I put my properties together and I did shop at IKEA and probably didn't use the right sorts of accents. But, however, that's all in the past. I wouldn't be doing it again without some professional help.

Heather Bayer
But I wanted to talk about what designing a vacation rental home actually means, because I know it goes beyond the colors of the walls and the artwork and the rugs. What are the design components that contribute to a really successful short-term rental? I'll say business, because that's what this is about; it is a business. If anybody really wants to succeed in this industry, tell me what all these components are beyond what we naturally think about.

Jessica Duce
Oh, absolutely. Well, I want to preface this with saying that we have a group of designers, and like the summit you mentioned earlier, that we all educate ourselves on this idea that I'm going to share about what we see about a successful vacation rental design. Obviously, we're not vacation rental owners, when we're coming in as a project we're hired, even though a lot of designers are getting into this. But what we look at it as how our design elements will just increase your profitability. Right? But a vacation rental, the business has so changed since 2015 when I started. And now with all of this competition out there and a saturated market in some areas, literally the only tool in your toolbox that's different from everybody around you, they have the same comps, the same view, the same everything. The only different tool you have is your design. So we need to stop the scroll and make you pop. Where we go with that is we look at things differently. So quality items that are going to make sense to purchase that are going to last. We look at your weight distribution, the quality of the fabrics, the basic knowledge that a lot of designers are talking about with performance fabrics, all of those things.

Jessica Duce
I have used a really good sofa in a project for 10 years, and over time, if we have to reupholster it, great, but we have a good frame. And then you have the replenishables that you need to sometimes change out or go missing, things like that. Good quality bedding, key moments and experiences in the house, because what we have found is that guests almost are looking your property like a voyeuristic experience. They're borrowing your home in their mind. Yes, they paid. But, they are looking at this property as this experience of how people that live in this property normally live there. So they don't want it to feel like it's a generic space, or it's filled with Pottery Barn furniture and it looks like their neighbors. They're looking for something that's different, that we've crafted, but yet is still going to handle all the wear and tear. No Eiffel Tower pictures, no themes. I mean, I understand coastal and all of that, but we're not going to run with 'Live, Love, Laugh', things like that.

Jessica Duce
We also, with that, when we source, you can't go fill up your truck from Target and HomeGoods and stock your rental because we look at it also with replenishable. If you break one of your lamps that you picked up at HomeGoods and we need a quick fix, we have a program where we can immediately drop ship or maybe they have a backup. But we know it's from a vendor we're always going to be able to get that match. If we've sourced your house from HomeGoods, all of those items are never going to be there again. So we look at it as the long game because your pictures and look have to be the same when the guests arrive. So it's all the way down to everything we source that can be easily replaced, fixed, long-term game, and to quality linens, little touches, the best throws, the games.

Jessica Duce
I know this seems like a basic list that a lot of owners already have. You can go on Pinterest and find 5,000 designers that give you five quick tips for a great rental or whatever. But our sources, our ability to tap lines that other people can't tap as owners. These are access to designers, we shop showroom closeouts, these are beautiful quality items that last and are all part of your design. So I don't know, I could just go on and on. We know where to spend the money. I know that you need for your vignette and your appearances in your photography, great lighting, interesting art, cool pieces, textures. We know where to place them, just-in silverware. I mean, I can go on and on.

Heather Bayer
I'm so glad you mentioned lighting. That's my particular bugbear in a vacation rental. I've been to so many where the lighting has been the one thing that has let the entire thing down, from not having lighting on either side of a bed to not having a space with a reading light in a living room. I remember going to one in New Orleans, which was a beautiful apartment, and it had no lighting other than the overhead lighting that wasn't dimmable. It was like a warehouse-lit space, and you couldn't change the lighting at all. It bothers me that people don't actually think about that. And coming back from my position as being someone who doesn't know about this, I think more people perhaps should look into themselves and say, do I have this knowledge to create this space, or should I pass it to somebody who does have the knowledge?

Jessica Duce
Can I add to that? Because I hear sometimes that people say it's just staging. And a stager does not look at a project and say, where are they going to hang their bathrobe? When they walk in, the kids dump their luggage and want to run and go see their room. Is the entryway styled in a way that all the luggage and your Costco bags and everything has enough room to drop in the entryway?

Jessica Duce
People [owners] put tchotchke all over the kitchen counter. But people [guests] really come in and they want to leave all their food out because they're there for a week and they have all these giant Costco sizes. So it's knowing where you put the tchotchke, where you do the space, where you do the right lighting, where we also, what we call control destruction. And we intentionally create spaces where we know kids are going to play, and it's easier for housekeeping to clean up in that space, as opposed to them taking things all over the house. So we really try to strategically design it so it's the easiest for housekeeping, and it's the best for your return on investment.

Heather Bayer
How does safety figure into all this? You're mentioning children and what children do in a vacation rental. How do you bring safety into the design consultation?

Jessica Duce
That's an important conversation. I've actually had to educate myself a lot on that. I recently met with Justin Ford, who definitely helped me elevate even more. I'm a huge fan. He's coming to the summit. You have to educate them on fire extinguishers, safety protocols around the house. We actually have a distributor of very attractive fire extinguishers, and they have all these fun patterns on them, and we can work them into the design. We have a protocol that we've had to craft recently with the help of Rent Responsibly, and some more input from Justin that we send out to all the owners. I don't want to say scare tactics, but it's something that people don't think about. In addition, we incorporate how we can quickly, if the owner is interested, adapt their property to ADA, if possible. So we really try to have all of those conversations....., cordless window treatments, all kinds of things.

Heather Bayer
That's great. Justin Ford is a really close colleague. I've done the safety certificate course. I do find now that when I look at properties, my eyes are immediately drawn to, where is the smoke alarm? It's not hidden in some corner where it's not going to be impactful. Where is the fire extinguisher? I had an owner once who, when I went to the property and I said, Well, I'm in the kitchen, I can't see a fire extinguisher. She said, It's in the hall closet in the box because it's unsightly. She was adamant, she did not want to bring this fire extinguisher out and put it in her kitchen, because to her it detracted from the overall look. We had quite the discussion, I'm sure you can imagine on that one.

Heather Bayer
But I'm glad you've taken this route of speaking with people like Justin, and of course, the Rent Responsibly team who are doing such an amazing job, not only with regulations, but with other forms of responsible rental. And that brings me into sustainability as well, because I know Rent Responsibly and Dave and Alexa are moving into that sustainable space now to encourage more owners, more managers to think sustainably.

Heather Bayer
And I know that this is something that is so out there in the UK and Europe, not so much in North America, but it is coming. How do you feel about engaging your owners and your managers in a discussion about sustainable design?

Jessica Duce
Well, it's actually very important to me. And it's a tough conversation a lot of times, to be really honest. I see hosts and people sharing about how they're updating their rental, and I see a dumpster in the driveway, and I see furniture sticking out of it, and it breaks my heart, to be honest. And I probably shouldn't name some companies, but I'm trying to avoid Wayfair. I am trying to work with local vendors or companies that are specific to what we do. And so we've actually made relationships with brands that will condense their orders, less packaging, just a more responsible way to stock a home.

Jessica Duce
And then when we walk into a house, we don't go, Everything must go. We need all new. We actually try to help find new homes or repurpose. We do a lot of re-upholstery, painting, working around in different homes. If a property manager contacts us and they have multiple properties, sometimes you just need to shift things around. It's amazing how it works out. So sustainability is actually really important to me. And sometimes I feel like I'm yelling at distance, but I'm still trying. I'm still trying. And when I see posts with piles and piles of cardboard and Styrofoam, and I just know it can do so much better. It may just take a little bit more effort comfort, but we can do it. We've got this.

Heather Bayer
Oh, I'm so glad to hear this. I felt that mine has been a bit of a voice in the wilderness, trying to bring some of this European thought into North America and say that you might not be thinking too much about it now, but it's a bit like regulations. If you don't think about it now, it's going to come back to bite you in the future. And you look at the reports that Booking.com does every year. And every year, it's saying that more people, particularly Gen Z, are focusing on sustainable travel. They want to be responsible travelers. And if you can show them what you've done to contribute to responsible travel, then that could bring more conversions. So good for you for going that route. Thank you for getting Justin Ford to come to the Vacation Rental Design Summit. I mean, he's everywhere, of course.

Jessica Duce
I know. I wish we could have grabbed you, too.

Heather Bayer
Next year, please.

Jessica Duce
Good. It's done. Done deal.

Heather Bayer
Okay, so I want to talk about this SNL skit, because the pandemic years just brought so many new entrants into this business. And along with that, came this slew of gurus and experts offering their services, their consultations. And just go onto YouTube or Google 'Airbnb designers' and up comes just hundreds of them. And really, none of them show their experience. They might say, well, I've been in the Airbnb business for the last couple of years, which translates to me for the last six months, and they've had a little bit of success, and now they want to share that and make some money out of it.

Heather Bayer
But I don't know how many of my audience saw the SNL skit recently. I'm just going to put a link to that in the Show Notes, and people can watch it. But I want to ask for your brief description of what you saw on that skit and what your thoughts are on why they did it and what the answer is to it.

Jessica Duce
I loved the skit. It's the best marketing I could have possibly asked for my business. To describe the skit, so go to the link that Heather is going to post. It is Chanel and Chanel, two interior designers, their name is spelled the same [but pronounced differently], talking about their knowledge and ability to design your Airbnb. It talks about a generic Eiffel Tower picture, I believe, a generic black... No, Einstein sticking out his tongue. Basically, a standard print you would find at HomeGoods, and making fun of the the generic design, out of the box, no personality, vacation rentals, the least amount of amenities possible just to get you in the door. It makes fun of guests doing chores, an eight-page guest book on how to take out the trash, and complicated locks, and basically saying, We can help you get a very boring vibe with no design interest at all for your rental. Hire us. And that is completely, it's completely different from what we do, us, my teams.

Heather Bayer
I saw that, and it was a few days before we did the recording, and I thought, This is perfect because this is really just illustrating exactly what the issue is currently with a lot of people out there saying, I can make this happen for you with, as you mentioned, a 'Live, Laugh, Love', words on the wall, and a few generic pieces of artwork and that enormous pile of K-Cups, which I like to...

Jessica Duce
Oh, I forgot about the K-Cups. We'll make up for everything else because we have two flavors of K-Cups.

Heather Bayer
Yeah. And To put them on one side and to put professional vacation rental designers on the other. I thought this just worked perfectly, because I knew I was going to be talking to you.

Heather Bayer
On your website, you have a list of certified vacation rental designers. What does that actually mean? What does it take for somebody to become a certified vacation rental designer?

Jessica Duce
This is born out of our first summit. When we had designers attending and so excited and they wanted to elevate their design with vacation rental design or jump into it, that's where this was born. We had to figure out a way to do this. And so we actually have education modules, and then we have specific brands that work with us so that they are friendly for the short-term rental or vacation rental world. And what that means is maybe these brands are more sustainable. They drop ship. They have a better warranty. They are the right price point. These are vetted brands specifically for what we need to do, and it's great.

Jessica Duce
And then the education modules, the very first module they do is understanding the business, because this is not residential design. We have timelines. We are responsible for your return on investment, how your guests are going to experience you, your reviews, your photography. So you really have to understand the viewpoint of an owner or a property manager, in my opinion, before you take on the responsibility of responsible design. So when I say that they're certified, what I really mean is, I feel that they need to understand the business on the other side before you tackle the design.

Heather Bayer
Yeah, I love that. Before I forget, I want to just bring you back to talking about the interview that you did with Tobi.....??

Jessica Duce
Tobi Fairly. Tobi Fairly. Great designer. Yeah.

Heather Bayer
And something you mentioned in that, which I was out on a walk and I laughed out loud, and it was about taking photographs of coffee machines. You see that in so many listing photo galleries are these close-up images, a little bunch of flowers on a bedside table. That's all you're seeing. It's a bedside lamp and a bunch of flowers, or a coffee pot or a toaster. I've seen those, too. Let me show you close-ups of every amenity I have. Can you just comment on that?

Jessica Duce
Oh, my gosh. We have so much work to do still. Yes. The guests want to imagine, they're going to imagine themselves in your property, and typically the person that's booking is going to be excited to say, I found this, and everybody's going to get there and love it, and nobody's going to go, Oh, good, there's the black washcloths they told me about. I thank God they have those in the bathroom. I mean, those are great, but no, they want... We literally look for the vignettes and the experiences we can capture for your stop the scroll imagery. And so I don't know where that trend started, but I know that a lot of real estate photographers, for demand, were switching over to how to shoot vacation rentals. But yes, we encourage less coffee pot photos. Yeah, we have a shoot list.

Heather Bayer
Yes. Yeah. And I think this is something that needs to go. If I'm looking for a vacation rental, and that's all I'm seeing, I want to see, and this is very personal to me, the most important shot I see is of the bed. I want to see that bed, I can imagine myself after a long day, maybe it's at a conference, maybe it's out on a beach, if I'm doing a vacation rental while I'm on vacation. I want to imagine myself climbing into that bed and feeling comfortable and going straight to sleep. A flat bed with one pillow is not going to cut it. I have turned away from perfectly beautiful properties because of the look of the beds. Is that me just being out on a limb or is that a really important aspect?

Jessica Duce
Absolutely. I think if you're not getting great shots in a listing, if they're strategically done, so maybe you can't see another side of the bed or whatever, or even if they're calling themselves a luxury listing and you're seeing limited amenities on the bed, absolutely. The competition is fierce. We're competing with hotels directly that are disguised as homes. So I don't think that's bad at all, that you make your listing based on those requirements.

Heather Bayer
Tyann, who taught me how to do photography in a property, she taught me how to take photographs in bedrooms and to get down on my knees and take the pictures. It really changed my perspective on photography. And once again, I'm not an interior designer, I'm definitely not a great photographer. I'm the one who forgets to remove the dog bowl in the corner or the empty beer bottle on a counter top. I had a great business partner who was fabulous at Photoshop. He would remove the dish towel that I'd forgotten to take off the bar on the stove. But yes, Tyan did a....

Jessica Duce
....That's a great skillset.

Heather Bayer
Tyann did a great job of teaching me how best to take photos. But once again, I think it's something that you leave to the experts if you're not fully competent at it, and I think everybody should know what they're competent at and what they aren't. Get a professional in to do it.

Heather Bayer
So there's owners and managers out there thinking, I'm enjoying this conversation, which of course they are. I might think about hiring a designer. What's going to come front of their mind is, this is super expensive. How can I justify this cost? And how should I go about finding the right person?

Jessica Duce
Yes, there's a misconception that we are this expensive resource that's going to come in and want to change everything. And it's going to be a very expensive experience. But now we've crafted the process so that we can give you the honest answers on what you can tweak to improve your guest experience, or your return on investment.

Jessica Duce
Now, what I've learned over the years, and I'm sure some people will disagree, but what I have learned from the different owners and property managers I've worked for is, it's not about the number of nights I'm renting. It's about the biggest dollar amount I can get for the least number of nights for less wear and tear. So that's really what we're bringing to the table, is how to curate a look and guest experience for the highest dollar, and then hopefully you have less nights. With that, where we go with that is there's a lot of designers, and you're going to click with different ones, but they understand the budget and the timeline. So go through the different design profiles and see who speaks to you with their work. That's what you want to look at. Look and see which vibe connects for you.

Heather Bayer
That is great advice. So what about a scope of work? Because even after what we've discussed here, I'm still thinking about, so if I hire a designer, do I have to say, I just want you to come in and look at my furniture, or, as the owner said, Come in and look at these floors. Do people start with something that they want to have changed, or do they give you carte blanche to come in and take a more holistic view of it?

Jessica Duce
Yeah, it really depends. Different types of projects. One of the advantages we have, and other designers, is that we get to come in with a fresh eye. You have seen the space the way it has been living for some time, and you're not seeing anymore what your guests see, or what we see. So we get come in right away and see what's glaring and needs to be fixed. A lot of our owners need to do it on a process. So we create a game plan and say, Here's all the things we should do. Here's what we can phase in. And we phase them in intentionally because you have to update your photography, because the guests, they're renting exactly what they see in those photos, and they expect that. So if we are changing out the entire project, that's a completely different process. But yeah, piecemeal is great. On top of that, though, what we have found and we've learned this through Vrbo, Airbnb, and some other online events with Rent Responsibly, is that with the algorithms and all of the competition, you should really be updating some parts of your look and your photos every 2-3 years.

Jessica Duce
So that's another part of it. We actually do some strategic design work where we're saying, All right, let's update this. These are the photos. We're going to need to do a refresh in 2-3 years. Here's what we'll do at that time.

Heather Bayer
Yeah, that's very important. The other thing came out of our Trust Week in our recent SSTIR Crazy Month, where we talked about how to get guests to trust you, because this is so important.

Jessica Duce
I listened to this one.

Heather Bayer
Trust is just one of those things that we're losing. We're losing the trust of consumers, because they don't trust now what they see online. They think it's all AI generated, and it could very well be. So I think one of the suggestions that came from Neely Khan, who's the managing director of I-PRAC, which is the trust certification program. And Neely said, with photographs, you should have on your site when those photographs were taken. Because I know from running my company that I think we had... In 2015, we were still showing photographs of properties that had been taken in 2005.

Heather Bayer
I think as we grew into the later years of my tenure there, then we began to realize that you had to do that updating regularly. We went into a year-18 months. Each year or 18 months, we go back and take another set of photographs. At that time, it gave us the opportunity to go in and say, Yeah, these throw cushions have seen better days. Of course, you should never be in a position of saying anything's seen better days. It should be long gone, I'm sure you would agree, before that point.

Jessica Duce
Oh, I actually learned this the hard way. We updated a bedroom and the owner, property manager, didn't take new photos, and we improved the bedroom. All new bedding and lamps and side tables, and a guest complained because it was not the bedroom that was in the listing. They had that other bedroom in their mind, and it was a drastic, beautiful, huge improvement. But that doesn't matter. It's not what he expected.

Heather Bayer
That's it. When people are looking at those photographs, and I think any of us who have stayed at a vacation rental, particularly if it's for a vacation, a longed-for vacation, all you have is those photos to go back to over and over again. You're bragging to your friends, Look where I'm going to stay. I'm going to sleep in that bed, and we're going to sit out on this patio on those chairs and eat. Even, we're going to eat off those dishes, if you've got photos of a table all laid up for, let's say a Thanksgiving dinner. You want to replicate these things and you want everything to be exactly as you see in the pictures. If it's not, then you've got to let those guests know.

Heather Bayer
We, too, learned that the hard way. I actually did, because in my own property, I decided that a set of bunk beds wasn't safe, so I separated them down and put them as two twin beds. It made for a much nicer-looking room. My cleaner loved me, because she didn't have to get up and do the top bunk bed, until I got the phone call from the incoming guests, and I could hear this kid, this child in hysterics in the background.

Heather Bayer
She said, Where's the bunk beds? She said, I've been promising my little boy the bunk beds. He's never slept in a top bunk, and this was his first time to sleep in a top bunk, and the bunk beds aren't here. Come and put them back right now. We couldn't because we'd disposed of all the fixings to do it. And it was an awful situation. And I learnt then that if you make any changes whatsoever, however good you think they're going to be for your guests, you've got to tell them if you make a change.

Jessica Duce
Absolutely. Yeah. And to your point, too, we also, with the photography and the changes, we walk the project and look at Instagram moments. Because like you said, they are picturing themselves doing this and in this room and with this item. And we're looking at how are they going to want to capture themselves in a photo to brag about this property they're at.

Heather Bayer
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And take something away that's going to make them do that and you've got an issue.

Heather Bayer
So tell us about the Vacation Rental Design Summit, and what's the benefit of attending, and who can attend? Because am I right that it's not open to everybody?

Jessica Duce
No. It is... Well, first of all, we're going to have you there next year. It was captured here in recording, so I'm super excited about that. This is our second one, the first one last year. This was born out of... I was attending different conferences, and they were never talking about design in the vacation rentals. And I felt like we needed to help connect these two worlds and get the message out of how we can help. And so I pitched it to Jane Dagmi with HPxD in High Point, and she's run with it. She's the co-creator.

Jessica Duce
And yes, it was originally designed for designers to elevate and understand the vacation rental or short-term rental design world and how to be a better designer for those people, for owners, investors, property managers, my favorite - mom and pops. But we have opened it up. The reason why it seems like it's a more select audience is because High Point Market is the largest furniture, accessory show in North America. And so they have very strict buyer pass rules. And so if you do have an LLC and your a property manager or owner, that qualifies, you can attend the summit.

Jessica Duce
But it's like being a designer at market. So if you meet that criteria, you can come. And we'd love to have you. We love it. Absolutely. Everything is listed on the website. You can Google, we can put the link or Vacation Rental Design Summit. But it is two and a half days of education. I said, Tyann will be there, Justin Ford will be there. We're going to share some information from VRMA, hopefully. But we have vendors specifically for this, and we have designers that are working actively in the space and understand how to do it so that other designers can help.

Jessica Duce
We are not working to attract the designers that copied an image on... I'm going to sound terrible, but copied an image on Pinterest, and now we're going to tell you their expert tips. This is designers that really respect the craft and understand profitability for the owner, the property management, as well as their business, and how we can all work together and elevate it with safety and education and a great guest experience. That's the end game. And to be responsible.

Jessica Duce
We educate owners, too. Sometimes they call and say, I have this two bedroom house and I want to sleep 16. No, that's not a good plan. And here's why. And work through all of that. Because that's being responsible to your community as well.

Heather Bayer
I'm so glad you said that. I used to deal with owners like this all the time who would say, I've got a three bedroom house, but I think we can fit 12 or 14 in. Why do you want to do that? You can get the same amount of money for less people just by doing it the right way. And I never have understood this whole,  as many heads in beds as possible mentality. Anyway, that's another topic of conversation.

Jessica Duce
My pet peeve is when I see a listing for 'it sleeps eight' and there's a table for two in the kitchen. That drives me crazy.

Heather Bayer
Yes. If it sleeps eight, there's got to be eight to eat inside and outside, eight around the campfire, enough lounging chairs outside for eight people. Just, yeah, do not make people disappointed because they can't sit down and watch TV or sit in front of the campfire, or they have to have to do their meals in shifts.

Jessica Duce
Yes. The number 10 sets of dishes and it sleeps 16.

Heather Bayer
Yeah.

Jessica Duce
I see that.

Heather Bayer
Yeah. Okay. I'm bummed that I can't be at the summit this year. I had another commitment, unfortunately, but we'll definitely mark that in my calendar for next year. I shall really look forward to that.

Heather Bayer
Jess, it's been absolutely lovely talking to you. I had a lovely conversation with Jane and Erica a while back, and they said that you were the perfect person for this episode, and you have been. It's been inspirational and educational and informative. So thank you so much for joining me.

Jessica Duce
Thank you. I loved it. We'll do it again. I loved it.

Heather Bayer
We will indeed.

Heather Bayer
Thank you, Jess Duce. That was such a great conversation. A lot of times when I'm talking to people, I think, oh, my gosh, if I could go back to my business now, I would do things so differently. I'm quite sure the new owners are doing it all differently right now. But one of the things I would be doing is getting somebody professional in to look at our properties overall and make recommendations, because I'd spent so many years thinking I could do this.

Heather Bayer
I could walk into a property and say, Yeah, this is going to rent really well, and away we go. Here's a price for it. But I think having really professional interior design eyes on properties nowadays. It wasn't so important a decade ago, but it is important now because it is so competitive. You've got to stand out from that competition. If it is doing something with the interior design of the place, then I'm all for it. I'm all for it.

Heather Bayer
So do take a look at the SNL skit if you haven't seen it. It was really funny. Go to the Vacation Rental Design Summit website. Check it out. It's fairly inexpensive to go. It's a very reasonably priced conference. I'd never heard of High Point, North Carolina before I connected with the organizers of the summit. Now I know it's US-central for furnishings and furniture. So I'd love to go, but I am going next year. So if you're going this year, I won't see you there. If you're going next year, I will. And I really hope you took something away from this conversation that you can use in your property and in your business.

Heather Bayer
As ever, always a pleasure to be with you, and I will be with you again in the very near future.

Heather Bayer
It's been a pleasure as ever being with you. If there's anything you'd like to comment on, then join the conversation on the Show Notes for the episode at vacationrentalformula.com. We'd love to hear from you, and I look forward to being with you again next week.

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