Mike Bayer

You're listening to the Vacation Rental Success Podcast, and we are proud to welcome back returning sponsor, OwnerRez. Providing a powerful and flexible system for managing vacation rental properties, OwnerRez provides booking and maintenance management, payment scheduling and collection, as well as insightful reporting. OwnerRez will provide you with a long-term booking foundation that is scalable for your vacation rental business while fully managing your channel listings, but still focusing on your brand, your website, and your way of doing things. If you sign up now using the promotional code VRF30, that's VRF 3 0, you can get 30% off your first three months. Make sure you're listening to the mid-episode break where you'll hear some great testimonials about OwnerRez and more about this incredible company. For more information about OwnerRez, click in the link in the description of this episode on your smart device. Let's get started. Here's your host, Heather Bayer.

Heather Bayer

Today I am talking to the co-host of The Real Women of Vacation Rentals and the Director of Business Development of USA and Canada at Homes and Villas by Marriott Bonvoy; it is, of course, Annie Holcombe. With 20 years experience in this industry, she's got a lot to share. We're talking about education, mentorship, standards, and how to become a real professional in this industry.

Heather Bayer

This is the Vacation Rental Success Podcast, keeping you up-to-date with news, views, information, and resources on this rapidly changing short-term rental business. I'm your host, Heather Bayer, and with 25 years of experience in this industry, I'm making sure you know what's hot, what's not, what's new, and what will help make your business a success.

Heather Bayer

Well, hello and welcome to another episode of the Vacation Rental Success Podcast. This is your host, Heather Bayer, and I'm super delighted to be back with you once again. Here we are halfway through the summer now and I hope everybody's enjoying it. I hope you're all having a really good time. I am. First time in 20 years, I think, that I haven't spent my weekends dealing with issues and talking to guests and owners and I have to say I'm quite loving it right now.

Heather Bayer

There's a lot happening with the Vacation Rental Formula Business School at the moment. We're really motoring with the new website and building courses and you will see a lot more to come. We'll be talking a little bit more about this a bit later on. But in the course of my mornings, I scroll through LinkedIn, I scroll through Facebook, I look and see what people are talking about in this industry, because I so often find the topics for the podcast through reading posts on social media. And they often start with a link to an article. And a week or so back, I read a post on LinkedIn that referenced an article in Skift that was entitled Short Term Rental Saturation Leads to a Correction and Lots of Home Sales. And yes, we've heard this all before, of course, but the post by Annie Holcombe picked up on the underlying truth. What she said was, While this is not a crash, it was an inevitable occurrence. People not understanding what it truly takes to operate a successful short-term rental business. We've been saying this for months. This is not a get rich quick business and people need to understand how to build a strong one that can stand the ebb and flow of travel.

Heather Bayer

So as I said, the poster is Annie Holcombe, the co-host of The Real Women of Vacation Rentals. She's also the Director of Business Development of USA and Canada at Homes and Villas by Marriott Bonvoy. So today I've invited Annie to come and talk to me on the other side of the microphone for once and explore her thoughts about access to information and education and mentorship in this business and much more. Of course, this is really close to my heart as we launched the Vacation Rental Formula Business School to  bring really quality education to everybody that's out there that actually needs it. It was interesting because the post inspired so much comment, mainly focused on the messages that newcomers to the industry are hearing that it's easy money, when in fact, more education, more mentorship, more support, more networking for people who are new to the business is what is really required, because it's not easy money. Maybe it was two years ago, but it certainly is'nt now. Annie and I had a discussion and I'm bringing to you this interview. It's really inspiring, thought provoking, most motivating, and I hope you enjoy it.  Let's go on over to it.

Heather Bayer

I'm super excited to have with me today Annie Holcombe. You probably know Annie from the podcast, The Real Women of Vacation Rentals. But Annie also has a very busy full-time job. So you'll tell us about that. Welcome. Thanks so much for joining me. Always good to talk to a fellow podcaster.

Annie Holcombe

Oh, Heather, it's an absolute honor. You are just THE OG podcaster, THE OG rental manager. You're all of the OG things just wrapped into one.

Heather Bayer

What does OG mean?

Annie Holcombe

Old Guard. Old Guard, as we were going to talk about.

Heather Bayer

That's what we're going to talk about. Yes exactly, and we are going to talk about that. We're going to talk about whether I should be wiped out because I'm 'Old Guard'.

Annie Holcombe

No, absolutely not.

Heather Bayer

So just give us a background on your role now and where you've come from?

Annie Holcombe

Oh, gosh. So I have a woven tapestry of experience. I started out in hotels, front desk, worked for every hotel brand along the coast in the Panhandle of Florida, where I live. I lucked into a company that decided they wanted to break into vacation rentals in the late 90s, worked for them for several years, then started a management company with my husband and two co-workers, did that through the last real estate downturn and oil spill, and then ultimately ended up over at an OTA, Expedia.  Worked there for four and a half years, handling 'the non-traditional lodging', which is the vacation rental segment of business, then worked for channel management, and now I find myself back in the OTA space, so I'm the Director of Business Development for US and Canada with Marriott Homes and Villas.

Heather Bayer

Wow. Now that is experience. That's a lot of experience. When I go back and me and my life, I've had 20 years of experience as a property manager. That is nowhere near the breadth that you bring. And I know that you're out there sharing a lot of that experience and expertise on LinkedIn. And I follow you on LinkedIn and love the posts that you make. But there was one that you made recently that really struck a chord with me because it was about an article in Skift, one of those 'same old' articles that have been appearing over the last six months or so. Not going to mention the... Well, I am mentioning it. The Collapse article by Nick Gerli, which if it was click bait, which clearly that title was, it definitely achieved what it set out to achieve. But there's been a lot of articles about short-term rental saturation and corrections and home sales, but you said something that really resonated with me from that. You said, We've been saying for months this is not a get rich quick business and people need to understand how to build a strong one that can stand the ebb and flow of travel.

Heather Bayer

So I wanted to explore this a little bit more, figure out where we are with people that are coming into the industry because there are going to be those who came into the industry at that time and are appreciating that maybe it was too much for them, the promises that were made to them. For whatever reason, they are not able to make the success of it that they thought they would. What needs to happen now for those who are remaining in the industry, they're not selling, and maybe for those who are coming in and taking those first steps? So let's have a big overview from you. Where do you think we are with the people that came into the industry in 2020/21, maybe '22 as well, and particularly for those who are hoping to stay in?

Annie Holcombe

Gosh, there's so many things to unpack in this topic. I think, again, going back to experience, I've been through a lot of things in my career that are like those big bellwether events, big things that change the direction of whatever business you're in. And again, I live in the Panhandle of Florida. We're prone to hurricanes, so I've been dealing with hurricanes and tropical storms and those type of things for years. Have that pretty well set. Had an oil spill, and that was something that had been unprecedented in my life. So that was a new thing to deal with. Then we had an economic downturn just about the same time as the last real estate bubble, if you will. And then we had COVID. And so you look back over the breadth of my career, I've been in all these different facets of the industry, but the one thing I know, is that tourism is a staple. People feel that traveling is their God-given right and they're going to do it. I think what we saw in COVID is people just needed to get out there. It shone a light on vacation rentals that we've never really had before.

Annie Holcombe

Now we've been doing this business, you 20 years. I've been in this over 25 years in various facets of it. It's been around for a really long time. We're not new. And we have an opportunity now with this light that's been shone on us to welcome people in. I think we're all excited about, again, the growth and more people stepping into the industry. But it's really going to take the old guard giving an olive branch to people that think they're the new guard or they're coming in and they want to be part of this business and helping them understand that this is a marathon, not a sprint. We're going to be in this, you're either going to be in it for years or you're going to be in and out really quick. And the ones that are in and out really quick came in with the mindset of like, I'll buy a piece of real estate, I'll be able to rent it for more than my mortgages and then I'll sell it and make a bunch of money. What they didn't think about was the fact that they were buying at the height of what real estate was going to get to, especially if they bought in the last 12 months.

Annie Holcombe

And they just didn't have a plan. They didn't understand all the things that go into managing properties, from just permitting and dealing with hiring the staff, making sure you're doing the marketing, your distribution, your revenue management. There's all these pieces that are fundamental basics that I don't think that... Again, there's not a playbook, there's not any one that runs exactly the same. So it's hard to say, here's your roadmap and this is the way you do it. But I do think that people got in here with the wrong sense of what direction they were going to be headed. And now they're just at a crossroads, like, do I get out? Do I stay in? And I think for us, people that have been in it for a long time, it's incumbent upon us to reach out to them and say, Okay, we want to help you. We want you to be successful because, I've said this to several people - regarding Vacasa as an example - if they're not successful, it's a black eye on the industry. We want them to succeed. We want them to be a publicly traded company that people will look at and be proud that they represent our industry.

Annie Holcombe

I could just go on for days about it. There are just so many different ways to take it, but we really have to bring all all of the segments of the business together to lift each other up.

Heather Bayer

There's a number of things that you said there that I'd like to touch on. One of them is there is no one piece of education that says this is what you have to do. You have to do this, this, and this, and you will be successful. I think this is what's been happening with some of the... I mean, we've all seen the ads, come and take my course and learn this business in three weeks for $1500. Because what is being taught is by the people who've only been in the industry for probably that same amount of time. So when you say it's incumbent on us that have been here a long time to mentor/support these people, how do we do it? How do we get that message across to them that there is this wealth of information and education and mentorship out there?

Annie Holcombe

Well, I think it's about networking. It's about calming the noise that's out there. Again, there's a lot of clickbaity posts and clickbaity articles that will get out there, and that's fine. If people want... if they're looking for followers or they're looking for likes, I mean, there are going to be people that do that. But I think we just have to be consistent. We have to be available to people. I know I have a private group on LinkedIn, and I just call it VR Mentor Meet-up. We just go post and share and trade articles. It's only been going on for a little while, so I didn't expect it to be anything big. But I think it's just if everybody would take something that one piece that they're very passionate about and focus on that and be available to people. One thing that I really don't want to get into, and I see some of it is negativity, like putting other people down for the sake of themselves.  Again, we're all in the same business, regardless whether we're urban or we're a traditional market, we're all trying to do the same thing. And if we can get our voice together and open up more opportunity for people to share and have, I guess, a judgment-free zone, if you will.

Annie Holcombe

Linkedin is a really great place, but sometimes it can get a little negative and we just need to be there and be consistent about offering support and offering help. And one big opportunity that I know we have is with VRMA. I think VRMA.... they opened up their membership a couple of years ago to welcome in independent owners or smaller operators. And that was a really great start. But I think we need to continue to drive the point home that we're not just vacation rentals, we're short-term rentals. We're everything in between. And that's where I think people got entrenched in their camps.... I'm a vacation rental property manager, I'm a short-term rental property manager. At the end of the day, we're doing the same stuff. It just depends on what market you're in. I look at it more urban versus traditional. But we have such an incredible wealth of knowledge just sitting.... you're an example. You've got so much information. We need to have you hosting webinars, hosting conferences, being on stage. Instead of having some of these more sensational types on stage to get people riled up? Yes, it's exciting and maybe people really get energized by it, but are they learning anything from it?  So I think we have to find a balance between the excitement and showmanship and the education and bringing all that together.

Heather Bayer

Yes, I think you're right. And you referenced these two camps. There seems to be two camps. I think from the side of the more traditional rental managers and operators of people who've been around, we don't necessarily see ourselves in a camp. I think we seem to be more encouraging to bring the newcomers in, to teach and to mentor and to network with, than perhaps those who are seeing themselves as the new guard, the new entrance.

Heather Bayer

I interviewed Avery Carl a couple of weeks ago, and she was in that other camp, I guess, and is now, as she's grown into the industry, she is seeing it from a different viewpoint now. And she used the expression 'Nurus'. We're seeing a lot of Nurus, the new gurus. And you're absolutely right that they seeming to negate what is out there in the way of experience.

Heather Bayer

And I listened to that No BS Podcast when Bill Faeth was interviewed. And I wanted to jump in and say, look, we may have been around for 20 years or 25 years or 30 years. And there's some people who've been in this business for 30 or 40 years and have so much to share.  Don't discount them. We send our kids to school to learn from people who have the knowledge. You don't say to your kids, it's okay, you're coming up to your high school years, you go out and learn it all yourself because you can do it better. We used to have a fridge magnet at home when my boys were in their teens, and it just says, "Teenagers move out, get a job, pay your own way, while you still know everything!"

Annie Holcombe

I think I said that to my son a time or two.

Heather Bayer

Yes.

Annie Holcombe

It's very true. I think that there's a lot of well-intentioned people, but there are people that are hyper-focused on being wealthy or having all the flashiness of wealth that comes with it, and that's fine. I think that there's room for everybody, but I don't want that to be the lure of people running to the light and thinking that's the direction they need to go and not understanding that, again, there's people here that want to help them and hold their hand through the process. Even if they don't want to have their hand held, but just need somebody there as kind of support, fine. I think we're all here. But it does really, it matters. I feel it matters how we're perceived as, again, the old guard or whatever you wanted to call it. We shouldn't be negated. We should not be cast aside. We should be welcomed in just as much as we should be welcoming them in. It's not an us-versus-them situation; we're greater together. We have a spotlight on our business that, again, we've all wanted for so long.

Annie Holcombe

We were all going to shows and going to conferences and talking to our OTAs and saying, hey, we're here.  You don't understand us. And we've made a lot of headway. But again, we can just join forces with this. I've referenced the pie that we're in all the time, and the professionalized vacation rental is like 25% of it. That 75% that's out there, they're all doing great things in their mind, but some of what they're doing is causing strife in the market, which is causing unneeded regulation. It's causing perception within communities that this type of business is not needed nor wanted. There's just a lot of negativity that can come from not being educated, or being willing to be educated about what's out there to run a successful business and to be prepared for, again, where we sit right now in terms of the economic worries and the downturn in tourism, which really isn't a downturn given that the numbers are still high.

Heather Bayer

Yes.  You mentioned VRMA, and I remember a couple of years ago that they did start encouraging new owners. If you have one property, if you have three properties, if you have five properties, come along, we'll welcome you in.  I can't remember which conference it is, but I recall there was an ice-breaker meeting with all these, not just new members of VRMA, but those at that stage. And I don't recall it happening since. It hasn't seemed to have been that focused on these people since. Are you seeing something different? Am I missing something?

Annie Holcombe

No. And I think that, again, the opportunity was put out there, and then there was just no follow through. I mean, I think it's just an enormous opportunity. I'm on the membership committee for VRMA, and it's one of the things, I just look at the numbers and I think we have thousands and thousands and thousands of potential members out there. How do we get to them? Is it partnering with the realtors? Is it partnering with Bill Faeth? I don't know the answer, but I just know that doing nothing is not serving us.

Annie Holcombe

I think that's a great point. And you mentioned partnering with Bill Faeth as a possibility. That is something that he mentioned on that podcast, that there, perhaps, could be some partnership between, and he's seeing them as definitely two separate camps, which I think this is the way that the world is at the moment. You're either in one camp or the other, which I think is a little unsettling that it's bringing that sort of polarity into our market. How can we breach that gap and get people to the center?

Annie Holcombe

I think it's going to take some of the larger voices. Again, Bill Faeth, he's got a very large audience. The Realtors Association. Let's think of how many realtors are in this space that don't necessarily consider themselves a property manager per se, but they're managing properties or they're giving guidance to people that might want to manage property. So there's a lot of areas of opportunity. Engaging with Airbnb is a great example. They're an OTA, but people get very frustrated that they become the name of our industry. Well, sometimes you got to get with the enemy and use the audience that they have. And I think it would behoove them to have the education out there for their partners, just as much as it would for the partners to be able to access the information. So there's a lot of different ways we can take it. But I just think, again, it goes back to, as an industry we have to start elevating more voices, not just four or five voices.

Annie Holcombe

There's so many people out here that I've met within the last couple of years. Lauren Madewell is one that comes up all the time. And just an absolute gem. The things that she does, and she's so creative, and she's young, and she's energetic. That's what we need. We need those people like her that are in these family businesses. To your point, they've been around for a long time, they're not new. But she's got a lot of great things to say, and she can get the engagement and just having more of those types active on the boards and not having people that are on a board and maybe they're too shy to get out there and speak. I'm not one saying that everybody needs to have a platform, but share the information that you have, whether it be through somebody else or inviting a local person who's just opened up a small business that has three units, invite them over for coffee and ask them what their troubles are. They may be very similar or they may have new troubles you never knew about. We just have to be open.

Heather Bayer

That's interesting you raised that, because it takes me back 20 years ago when I came out to Canada and I'd been running my vacation rentals in Canada for the previous five years. So I decided I was going to emigrate and, hey, I'm going to start a vacation rental management company because the ones that were around us, I didn't think were doing the best job. But I had no idea, absolutely no idea what to do. And I could not get anybody to talk to me. Nobody was interested. They talked about, Well, I would talk to you, but that would be sharing our secrets. And then fast forward to today, there are no secrets. Everybody's out there on Facebook and on LinkedIn and wherever they are, wherever they're sharing, and they are sharing. So it is so much easier to find that information if you are a new entrant into the business. But that's only if you want to get it. I wanted to because that was the only way I could learn because the information wasn't as freely available as it is now. But I think what's happening is people come in and they see all sorts of disparate information, little bits of it here and there, and there's nothing... would you agree.... there's nothing that's really coherent?

Annie Holcombe

Yes. And I think also, too, is that there's so much information it starts to become noise and they don't know which pieces of that information should I take as gospel? Which should I take with a grain of salt? Which should I completely ignore? And it was funny because just to go back to another LinkedIn post I made, because I see a lot of people that come in and one of the tags that they put on their bio is that they're an 'influencer'. And it started to dawn on me, who defines what an influencer is? Because you influence me, but you might not be influencing someone else. So we are going to look at you in a different way and vice versa. And so that was just a question in my mind, is it really about the numbers? Because if it's about the numbers, then I'll never get there. But if it's about content and it's about conversation and engagement in that conversation, then okay, then I'm doing something. You wanted to talk to me because of a post that I made. So I think that it's just, again, making sure that people understand that you have to read as much information, or look at as much information, or find as much education as you possibly can.

Annie Holcombe

And you'll learn which pieces work for your business. But at the end of the day, if anybody tells you that this business is, again, we can go back and a quote Lauren made, well, 'Passive, my Ass'ive!' You have to be active in it. You have to be engaged in it. You have to understand how you affect your neighbor, how you affect your market, how you affect the business. I mean, you're part of a really incredible ecosystem, but it's big and it's vast and it can be very overwhelming. And so one of the things through the conversation on that post that we were referencing earlier, was that I likened it to people who dove into the deep end of the pool and never took a swimming lesson. There's just a few things that you want to make sure you know before you get into it. But above all, don't be afraid to ask. That's the biggest thing I would tell anybody is, don't think you know it all. And if you want to know, a million people are out there that are willing to help you. That's one thing that this industry does better than I think anything I've ever worked with is, that we're all open to help and provide information and provide direction.  So we just need to continue to do that.

Heather Bayer

I think there was somebody who posted in a response and just said, get out and network. Get out and network, go to the conferences. And it's been really good to see so many new opportunities. Damian Sheridan with his Short Stay Week. I went to that in Barcelona back in May, and it was predominantly a much younger and fresher audience than I've seen recently.

Heather Bayer

Bart Sobies in Australia with his Strive [to Thrive] Conference, and he put a comment on your post as well. And besides saying, he said, "This is a business, not a side hustle. And I work with a lot of hotels, they meticulously plan what they're going to do before they get into it and short-term rental should be treated the same." But he then went on to say that he was surprised that he was approached by so many people to say that they were interested in learning from people who had been around a long time.

Heather Bayer

So maybe that is the thing. It's going to the conferences where that type of collaboration is being promoted rather than saying, We are coming up, we're new, this is it, get rid of the old guard.  We'll just drive ahead with something very new because all those people out there are rooted in the earliest part of this century and they've lost it in terms of modernity and being up-to-date. Rather than doing that, these new people who are doing these other conferences like Damian, like Bart, and there's some other ones that are going on throughout the US and Canada. I have more of a collaboration feeling about it, and I like that. And certainly in Barcelona, I was quite blown away with the shift in the age group. Maybe it's just because I'm getting older. Everybody seems young now.

Annie Holcombe

Yes, I get that feeling all the time. But it is nice to see, and I know that our team over in Europe, they've attended several of those conferences, and they'll say the same thing. I mean, it's like just the shift in where people are putting their attention and who's showing up at these conferences. I mean, yes, there's the traditional ones that have been going for years, but all of a sudden, there's a whole new segment of fresh faces. And I know, again, through LinkedIn, I've had people reach out to me that just like, Hey, I just want to connect, or, I saw your post and it was so interesting. And that's good because I think, again, if you would just engage and just listen and find a few people that you can ask a question to, or just listen to, or just get some ideas from it. I think it sparks the right conversations and it sparks people to follow the right people. And again, whenever there's anything associated with, do this and make a million dollars, I always go, Not again.

Annie Holcombe

I'm not against it, but at the end of the day, it's like anybody that's been in this business knows it takes a really long time to make a lot of money. You have to work really hard and put a lot of attention, a lot of blood, sweat and tears into it. And you just mentioned to me off-camera that when you sold your business, all of a sudden you had free time that you didn't realize that you were going to have because you're in the business and when you're passionate about it, and all the things that you have to do to drive it to be successful. It's a time consuming thing and it's not passive. It's not something that you can set it and forget it.

Heather Bayer

We're going to take a short break just now to hear about our sponsor, OwnerRez, directly from one of their clients. We'll be back to our interview in just a few moments.

Jodi Bourne

Hi, I'm Jodi Bourne. I'm a website designer and consultant for the vacation rental folks out there and I want to tell you all about OwnerRez. If you do not have a PMS or channel manager, or even if you do and you're looking for something new, for whatever reason, I highly recommend you get started with OwnerRez.

Jodi Bourne

There are so many companies out there and different ones appeal to different people for different reasons. But I will say, of all the PMS companies that I've worked with, I feel like OwnerRez is the best. They really care about their customers. They're constantly adding new tools, new integrations, new features, new services, and their pricing is great. So definitely, if you haven't checked out OwnerRez, get to know them and see if they're the right fit for your business.

Heather Bayer

Well, that was a great testimonial. Now back to our interview.

Heather Bayer

How can the people who are listening to this and thinking, I do have this wealth of knowledge, I would like to mentor somebody. How do you go about it? A couple of years ago in the podcast community, there was a call for mentors. And whoever was doing this put together this bank of people who are interested in being a mentor and the upcoming podcasters who had an idea and didn't know how to take it forward and matched them up. And I had a mentee in Africa, and she was absolutely amazing. She was encouraging women to take new roles and to apply for jobs that traditionally would not have been open to them. And that was what her podcast was about. But she didn't know how to get it out there, how to talk about it, how to invite people onto a podcast. So it was great to have these discussions with her about approaching people and asking them to come on a show. And it was very simple. And her show is now doing really, really well. But that was just a relationship that came because somebody went out there and said, Look, I've got this list of people who want some mentors, and I have this list of people who would like to have a mentee.  How can we go about doing something similar?

Annie Holcombe

Well, Heather, you and I can start our own mentoring database. Again, people need to just ask, there's no shame in that. And I think that that's one of the things I wish I had known sooner was just, if you don't have a mentor that's naturally there, ask for one. There's people that want to do that. They want to share their knowledge. And you've got, again, 25, 30 years of knowledge you want to transfer over. And there's opportunity there. But I go back to VRMA. I think VRMA has an opportunity to create some mentoring group. They did a program during... I can't remember what they called it. I want to say it was 'meet your neighbor' or something like that. But it was during COVID where they were attaching people monthly with new faces in the industry, and you could get connected with somebody in technology or somebody who's a property manager, just different areas. And every month you would get a new person and you'd just have a coffee chat. But we were doing obviously Zoom calls during COVID, but I met a bunch of people that way. And I think, again, putting yourself out there for someone to reach out to you and vice versa.

Annie Holcombe

If you want information, go out there and seek it. But if you want to offer information, you have to go out there and offer it. You need to be out there and be centered. So I think LinkedIn is a really great place. I think that working more collaboratively with people, again, in the camp that perceives us being in two camps. Annette [Grant] and Sarah [Karakaian], their Thanks for Visiting Podcast is amazing, and what they're doing with that is so good. And I love it because they're so focused on just showing truly how it is to run a business because they're in it day-to-day, but they're offering up that education. I think just partnering with more people like that, whether it be we do it through the podcast community or we do it through VRMA, or we just do a bespoke conference that is just about getting people together for that purpose. I don't know what the right answer is, but I just know that together we can do it.

Heather Bayer

Yes. So you ended your post by saying, We've got a strong position of voice, let's use it to bring it all sides together and make it stronger. So we've covered a couple of things in terms of that. I'm still struggling. Maybe it's just me having this Pollyanna thing that we could reach out and bring all these people who are confused and thinking that they should sell their places because they don't know what to do with them, or they'd like to grow and they don't know how. And I'm thinking that they're all going to come flooding in and respond to our outpouring of experience and expertise. But I don't think that's going to happen.

Annie Holcombe

Probably not. I mean, it's like that you can take a horse to water, you can't make them drink. All you can do is just make the water available. So I think, again, for me, it's just about being out there and being present. And when I see things that resonate with me, what I've learned is that if it resonates with me, it might resonate with one or two other people, and that's all I need to be is just speak to one or two people. And then those two people speak to two people. And it multiplies downstream. But when we see things that we question or we may not agree with, I think it's good to have a conversation about it, and it's good to have opposing views without it being confrontational. But the more we have a dialog, the more information we can share and, again, button-up and make sure that there's not falsehoods or clickbaity things shared out there. The data post that everybody has been talking about recently, that's a great example, you can manipulate things to tell whatever story you want. So I think having somebody or having people in general that called that out very quickly, that speaks volumes, because I don't know that that would have happened five or six years ago.

Annie Holcombe

I think we definitely, as an industry, recognize we have a voice and we have a spotlight. It's just a matter of getting it a little more unified. And I'm not saying that there needs to be one spokesperson or 10 spokespersons, but I think that we all are the professionalized side of it, if you want to call it that way.  It's our responsibility to make sure that we call out the falsehoods and make sure people know where they can go get good information that will help them make good decisions.

Heather Bayer

So if you had overall control of VRMA......

Annie Holcombe

God no!

Heather Bayer

.....what would you like to see a VRMA conference looking like in five years' time if we were to bring people together like this?

Annie Holcombe

I think having... and there's been a lot of conversation for years about this, a couple of different tracks for people to join. So again, if you only want to manage three or four units, this is the thing that you need to be aware of. And if you want to manage 10 and scale to 50, this is what you need to be aware of. But you want to be in 27 markets. And there's just various tracks of the business that I think that we could present instead of trying to be... I don't want to say that that's the way it is, but I think sometimes it's trying to find the balance between small and large scale makes things vanilla. We're just not presenting things in enough detail with enough depth of understanding or conversation available to people to get them excited about wanting to be part of it. So we have, first of all, to make them excited that this is a great place to be. And again, a safe space to share, safe space to learn, safe place to ask questions. Get them excited about that and then create tracks of information that will resonate with each type of group.

Annie Holcombe

Because, again, an operator in an urban market like Atlanta doesn't need to know the same stuff that someone in Panama City Beach or Destin, Florida needs to know. There's just different ways of operating, but there's no reason that we shouldn't have all of that available for you to cross pollinate thoughts and conversations.

Heather Bayer

It was interesting the way they did it at Short Stay Week. So the first day was Book Direct. It was just about direct booking and strategies and ways to go about it. And then there was Scale Rentals. And the first day of Scale Rentals was for property managers from 0 to 25 properties. And then the second day was the larger managers, these are 25 upwards. And that was quite interesting, the content that went into those different Scale Rentals days. You could certainly go to both, but it was very focused, and I thought that was such a great way of doing it. But we shall see where VRMA goes over the next five years. And of course, there's so many other events.

Annie Holcombe

Oh, yeah, there were. I just use that as it's our association. We need to make sure that everybody is participating.

Heather Bayer

And I think Amy's done the most amazing job with the [VRMA] Women's Summit, because I've been to the past two Women's Summits. I'm going to this one this coming December; can't wait for that. And that, to me, is such a great collaborative event. It does bring everybody in. I've seen people there who have just one property, and then the larger property managers and people coming together like that and really learning, not just the mechanics of running a company and operating a business, but also all the other stuff that goes on in the periphery of it.

Heather Bayer

Did you write that post about imposter syndrome?

Annie Holcombe

This week?

Heather Bayer

Yes, because that resonates very much with me. I've had imposter syndrome from the day I started my first job and I still have it. And I thought that would be a great topic because I think it's very common, a great topic to bring to something like the Vacation Rental Women's Summit, because it doesn't matter. It doesn't look at age and what camp you're in. People are out there with that emotional feeling of imposter syndrome. So I just wanted to bring that up because yet another post that you made. You're really inspiring me actually to go out and...... because I have imposter syndrome, I tend not to post, because I don't want to be judged. But you are inspiring me to do so now.

Annie Holcombe

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And I will say that it took a lot for me to get to this point. But I think COVID was a catalyst for me, because I think everybody was in their fight or flight mode, like, how are we going to get through this? And trying to not necessarily be relevant, but just be present and be engaged that I found it was okay to say things, because it may not resonate with every person that sees it, but if it resonates with a few, then that's great. And then the few becomes more than a few. And then over time, it gives you a little confidence in what your thoughts are. Like, maybe you're not an idiot. Maybe this information that you have in your head is valuable. So yes, I encourage everybody to get out there and have those conversations. I mean, there are unfortunately trolls, if you will, that get out there and will comment negative stuff, or they just always know best, and you just ignore it. But for the most part, most people have been engaging and shared their thoughts and countered or asked questions.

Annie Holcombe

And so if I inspired you to get out there, I know you have, like I said, an incredible wealth of knowledge to share with everybody. So please do it. Please help share all of it. It's only going to make us better.

Heather Bayer

So on a last note here, Annie, if we've got listeners out there who are perhaps decided that they're going to listen to an Old Guard podcast and would like to get some help or some assistance in growing their business and becoming more professional at it, what would you suggest that they do?

Annie Holcombe

Well, I would definitely listen to your podcast for sure. I would also suggest that there are just so many. Obviously, the podcast that I do with Alex Husner, it's Alex and Annie, The Real Women of Vacation Rentals. But there's the No BS podcast. There's just a lot of great podcasts out there to get that information. I would say, again, people can reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'm very active and available on there. That's the best way to engage with me. And then I think that as far as getting information goes, no question is a stupid question. That's one thing I know for sure is because you're asking it, somebody else wants to know that answer too. So just ask as many questions as you possibly can.

Heather Bayer

Yes, exactly. And I've been saying that to people for years. Just ask the question. There is no such thing as a stupid question. But sadly, there are those trolls out there who do jump in and tell people they're stupid or they should have used better punctuation. And it's tough when that thing impacts you. But yes, I think you've made a very wise point. They're there. They always will be. And they really service their own needs and not anybody else's anyway, so ignore them.

Heather Bayer

But yes, thank you. You've had some very wise words there. And I really enjoyed this conversation. I really have. I think it's one that needs to be going forward. I think we've got to find this way of reaching the people that we can help. And with the wealth of knowledge with everybody that has been in the business for some time, we've all got it to share. So thanks so much for sharing yours today.

Annie Holcombe

Well, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. It's been a wonderful time.

Heather Bayer

Thank you so much, Annie. There's so many threads in that conversation that I think we will pick up on over the next weeks, months, or whatever. I think this is an area that we should probably spend a little bit more time on, because somebody's got to get out there and bring people together. It's no longer a case of everybody is in the same place. We're all in different places. I'm not going to call them camps anymore, but we're in different places, but we do need this effort at collaborating and bringing everybody together. So hopefully, Annie and I will maybe pick up on this and take this a little further forward. We had a little chat after the interview and just talking about how we bring people who are interested in mentorship together with those who would like to spend some time with people who've been in the industry a while.

Heather Bayer

I remember a while back on the Sarah and T podcast where Sarah went down and spent some time with Tim at his property management company and then came back with so many ideas for her own. I've heard this from other people that they just spent a couple of days just shadowing somebody who'd been in the business much longer. And they saw how their company worked and they were able to bring so many ideas and new thinking back to their business. So maybe that's something as well that we should think of. Certainly for smaller property managers, I would have loved that when I started out. If I'd had the opportunity to go and sit down in somebody else's company and see how the operations ran, see what they did in terms of marketing, looked at their office space, went out to a couple of their properties, and understood how their changeovers were managed. All those things, all those different components that come together to bring a solid property management company to success. You learn from other people and you don't have to take everything away. You take what you need and leave the rest. I think that's something else that we should perhaps be exploring. Okay?

Heather Bayer

Of course, we talked about education and that's what we are intending to do with the Vacation Rental Formula Business School. We're not at this moment bringing together a full course that's going to teach you how to do it on a step-by-step basis. We do have different parts of the business that we're providing education for.  And as we go through the next six months, you're going to see more and more coming online. So you're going to be able to do a pick and mix. If you want to learn more about marketing, if you want to learn something about data and revenue management, you'll be able to go to the Vacation Rental Formula Business School and find these short courses that will maybe fill in some gaps in your knowledge.

Heather Bayer

And I think at some point, as we go into 2024, we will be developing a Property Management Professional Course that covers all the elements that you do need to know. It doesn't mean that you have to apply them in exactly the same way as everybody else, but the elements that you need to know in order to form a really good property management company. So that's coming in 2024. It's actually something that we tried to do back in 2020, and we launched it in March of 2020, and look what happened. We didn't actually take it any further. So I'm pleased to be putting that back together again with a lot more learning that I've taken on board and the rest of the team has taken on board from the last few years.

Heather Bayer

So, super enjoyable conversation with Annie Holcombe. I will put her LinkedIn link, if you like, on the Show Notes. Go and connect with Annie. Tell her that you heard the podcast and that you'd like to have a connection with her, and I'm sure she will welcome you. Of course, I'll put a link to the Alex and Annie podcast as well, The Real Women of Vacation Rentals, and suggest you go take a listen to that as well.

Heather Bayer

So that's it for me for another week. Wherever you're listening, I hope you enjoyed that and I will look forward to being with you next time.

Mike Bayer

This episode was brought to you by the kind returning sponsorship of OwnerRez. Don't forget, if you sign up, use the promotional code VRF30, that's VRF 3 0, to get 30% off your first three months of usage of OwnerRez, which is an internationally recognized leader in vacation rental software. You can click the link in the description of this episode in your smart device or head over to vacationrentalformula.com/OwnerRez to find out more.

Heather Bayer

It's been a pleasure as ever being with you. If there's anything you'd like to comment on, then join the conversation on the Show Notes for the episode at vacationrentalformula.com. We'd love to hear from you and I look forward to being with you again next week.

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